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sunshinecoastathome January 7, 2023

Part 3 of 3
But here is the thing - I actually think most boys and young men have enough sense and judgment to see through this bravado for the bullshit that it is (and the act or persona that he is engaged in) and pick up the bits of his statements that they find useful for themselves.  I know that is an unpopular amongst those who think that if you ignore this person he will just go away. Tate is not actually the problem – he is the symptom of a problem.  I say this as a father of teenage boys, one of whom I actually had a discussion about Tate today to make sure he understood what aspects of Tate’s messages were wrong and why they were wrong.
Rebecca Sparrow’s list of male role models is a nice list but there is a reason these people don’t have the following of an Andrew Tate.  Tate speaks directly to boys and young men as a group.  Its almost as if we are afraid as a society to consider boys and young men as a group (there is no such reticence for girls or young woman) and encourage them to be the best versions of themselves that they can be – not for the benefit of someone else – but for their own sakes and what that self-actualization can bring them.
Despite stating otherwise I suspect this wont actually be the last time that this magazine publishes something about Tate.

sunshinecoastathome January 7, 2023

the rest of my comments - Part 2 of 3
But here are some other aspects of him to consider.
He is actually quite intelligent and if you listen to some of his conversations you would probably agree with 80 - 90 % of what he says.  The aspect that most boys and young men gravitate to is encouragement around personal development and improvement.
He does talk about some aspects of men's issues and difficulties in society and makes some interesting points about the issues he raises - I have been surprised at validity of the points that he has made.  This resonates with boys and young men because, in part, there is a sense of alienation amongst young men and this person seems 'on their side'.  There is a recent interesting interview with Piers Morgan – someone who doesn’t suffer fools gladly (on YouTube) and he can express himself quite articulately.
He interjects sensible comments with absolutely outrageous and misogynistic statements about woman. 

sunshinecoastathome January 7, 2023

Part 1 of 3 ...
This is really poor advice from Rebecca Sparrow.  There is an indulgent judgmental aspect to it that forgets why this issue needs to be dealt with.
The reason we have to engage with this issue (despite one’s distaste) is because it is actually our job (as parents) to guide our boys through this minefield towards the types of men that we want them to be.  Merely dismissing this individuals as a disgusting individual whose ideas should never be discussed invites a sense of martyrdom that is actually appealing to some young men and boys.  
And Tate is a bit of an enigma - he is nowhere near as two dimensional as some people make out.
Firstly, I don't like Tate - he is one of these internet gritters who has used his fame to make himself rich.

sunshinecoastathome August 5, 2022

Andrew Tate needs to be taken with a grain of salt, the real issue for me is why boys and young men gravitate to online content creators via youtube and the like.  It seems to me they can't actually have many of these conversations in real life lest they are accused of toxic attitudes and I think many young men and boys are terrified of being judged for asking some basic questions about their place in life, their value as men, male sexuality and what is reasonable to expect in engagement with woman.  In that sense I think young man's culture has gone online (and to a degree underground).  Its the only place they can have these conversations.  And to be fair most of the channels I have seen in the 'manisphere' encourage their viewers to take responsibility for their actions, act ethically towards others, try to improve themselves to the degree they can but most of all to value themselves as themselves and not only in what they can provide to others.  I remember watching an interview with Jordan Peterson in which he was asked why he was so popular with young men; his reply was simple, 'because they know I'm on their side' - and the truth of those words shocked me.  There are so few messages in society that are encouraging to young men.  They'll take it where they can - even from Andrew Tate.

sunshinecoastathome July 15, 2022

I've had this conversation twice with my sons and a couple of observations on Mia's letter.

1) I completely agree with many (probably all) of the observations that Mia has made in her letter.  It does give a good outlines of the issues to discuss with your son.

2) Sometimes the medium can affect the message.  Mia has made the decision not to have a face-to-face conversation with her pre-teenage son about sex. This is wise. Boys at the age during which this conversation needs to happen (I would say about 12) don't have be emotional maturity to differentiate between the message and the messenger and Mia is rightly concerned that the important message may be mentally filled by boys in the category as 'things that mum thinks'.  The optional way for this conversation to happen is between a boy and their father - its important for fathers to model the values they want their sons to emulate and boys will instinctively mold their behavior and template their masculinity against the most significant male figure in their life.  This isn't always an option for some families and in that case I would suggest asking a well loved uncle or a close male family friend who your son trusts and respects to fill this role.  This is difficult because this topic is intensely personal and the relationship needs to be someone with whom your son holds as a role model but also close enough for the message to be received (and of course someone you trust).  A letter to your son about this issue might be the last (but necessary) option.

3) Mia has gone into some detail - I would suggest that less detail is actually better.  Most boys can understand the issues when you explain it to them and I'm not sure going into such detail actually adds value. The key messages are the damage that porn does to boys and young men and how porn presents a terrible and realistic (not to say disrespectful) image of woman and in no way represents the beauty of sex with someone who you value.

4) As mentioned above I would say about 12 is the right age to have this conversation - its probably the right age at which they can engage with the subject and can connect it as they are beginning become more aware of sex.

5) I raised this issue during a long walk that I took with my sons (separately) for which I prepared them for in advance (eg I told them that I wanted to have an important conversation about sex.)

6) my boys understood what I was telling them and I think they took onboard the messages (they were quiet at the time - but that's ok - boys need time to process these things) - I have repeated these messages from time to time (and discussed other issues about sex such as practicing safe sex)- its actually easier to talk about now that they are teenagers.

In actually breaks my heart that one of the first discussions I had to have as a father with my sons about sex was one about porn, but I regret to say completely necessary and must not be ignore.  The emotional and psychological damage that occurs to boys through ubiquitous access to porn (streamed into the phone of any 10 year old!) is actually a tragedy and that reality has lead me to seriously reconsider my own relationship to porn.  It won't go away, the environment in which I grew up where 'porn' was a magazine in the back of a friend's father's cupboard wont be repeated, and its up to parents to navigate this social problem and prepare their children for engaging with it in the best way possible.

sunshinecoastathome July 5, 2022

@howtoexplain Thanks Howtoexplain; I haven't seen this in the ABS website (which has very useful data).  Couple of observations - it would seem that stat is for 1 year and not an aggregate over time so that is a consideration in thinking about the scale of the problem eg its bigger than the .23% would indicate. Also reports aren't convictions, and I know there are some issues with that but I say that in the context of an acquaintance who I know who was charged with a DV related offense (stalking I think) - she was later found not guilty and it was clear that there was no substance to the allegation by her girlfriend - her reported offense would also feature I am guessing? Non-the-less it is a start, thanks for that.

sunshinecoastathome July 4, 2022

@howtoexplain HI Howtoexplain: where did you draw these figures from?

sunshinecoastathome July 4, 2022

@beachhouse84 Thanks beachhouse84.  My comment was a response to the comment of Poddletime in considering the role of men in this conversation / issue and difficulty in formulating a response in the lack of direct experience with the behaviors that you see played out in the news with terrible effect and loss of life. Its not a lack of sympathy or compassion, it is difficulty in associating yourself with someone merely because you share the same gender.  Deep down you know that not only are you not that man, you also know that you aren't like that man.  There is an expectation in Poodletimes' comments that men need to do more.  The question that occupies my mind is what form that should take, but more importantly - will that in any way be effective?  Expressions of compassion and empathy are important (actually they are a natural, necessary human reaction to reading about the events described above) but in and of themselves they don't shift the dial.  I'm struggling to consider what will.

sunshinecoastathome July 3, 2022

@cat Hi Cat, yes its true, not all men abuse their intimate partners.  I have been interested in trying to find something that quantifies this question eg the percentage of men who engage in abusive behaviors, physical, emotional or otherwise, but I have been unable to find anything.  I once asked a knowledgeable speaker who came to my work (to speak on this issue) this question with the hope she would have some insights, but she couldn't provide any answer to this.  There is some data on the numbers of people who are subject to intimate partner abuse / violence (and that depends on the definition), but I have not found anything that speaks to the percentage of the population who are perpetrators of this this behavior.  Its the missing piece of the puzzle I believe and would help towards crafting solutions or policies that actually work (beyond the service provision of victims of abuse -  towards targeted preventive measures). That's my view anyway. 

sunshinecoastathome July 3, 2022

@chrissyinthemiddle Hi chrissyinthemiddle, thank you for your kind suggestion, it is such an obvious one I'm shocked that I hadn't thought of it.  I've been seeing this as a legal issue but of course he needs more then that and probably more than I can provide.  I know he has spoken to Lifeline but he needs someone who can offer him practical and constructive advise and strategies for living in this situation as well as someone who is 'on his side' in some emotional sense.  Thank you very much.

sunshinecoastathome July 1, 2022

@poodletime Hi Poodletime.  Your comments about the role of men in this conversation has made me think. 
I think one of the problems is that most men who think about these things don't actually agree with many of the sentiments that are deployed in the various augments about the tragic events described above. 
I don't actually know any men who boast about beating their wives.  Its not a sentiment that exists in my circle of acquaintances.  I do however have a good friend who who is in an abusive relation with a horrible, vindictive and malicious woman who emotionally and physically abusing him, mocks him in front of his children (and encourages them to do the same) and throws things at him in order to humiliate him because she knows he can't (and won't) retaliate.   I have actually begged him to leave her but he won't because he knows she will deploy everything she can to deny him access to his children.  I took him to a lawyer to find out about his options and she went through all of the legal options are open to his spouse to use against him and the list of option that she can use without any evidence is chilling.  After that meeting he decided not to leave her because he knew the system would swing in behind her and he would loose everything. 
Now I know that my friend isn't at risk of loosing his life as a victim of homicide - only all his assets (for the court fight) and possibly access to his children for years. I'm really disturbed at the idea of what will happen to him
I suppose one of the barriers for most men to engage more is the suggestion that this is caused by 'men'.  That is actually true, but a tiny percentage of men - its hard to actually associate yourself with people who would beat their intimate partner or, god forbid, kill their children. That is so far outside your instincts as a father that its difficult to understand.  There is a link between masculinity and physicality and its extreme form, violence.  Its one of the reasons that I insist that my sons learn a martial art - so they fully understand this potential (of them to perpetrate violence) and have complete control over it.  Ensuring my sons are also emotionally mature and know they are loved - and thus valued- is also part of the solution I think.
I also know there are people who are malicious and who are clever enough to manipulate the system - its hard to know what to do in these instance.  But there are also people, like my friend, that regardless of what their spouse says should be entitled to see their children and be a father to their boys.  Its hard to get onboard with the concept that all men are guilty unless proven innocent as some of the language in the above article would suggest. 
I'm somewhat critical of the effectiveness of the solutions being deployed in this space (regardless of the tens of millions of dollars being spent) because of the fact it doesn't actually seem to be effective.  There was a 50% decrease in homicides between 2020 and 2021 but it looks as though this will spring back to approx 50 woman murdered at the hands of their intimate partner in 2022.  That is very depressing. 
Anyway, those are my initial thoughts.  I would be interested in your views.

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